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Jeg planlægger at bestille hjem fra Neos-sub i Italien
Bl.a. deres rigt omtalte og roste spyd fra Devoto
Det ville være smart at kunne deles om portoen og derfor søger jeg interesserede i københavnsområdet
Tjek deres webshop: http://www.neos-sub.com
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Det ville være fedt, hvis vi havde endnu et fabrikat at vælge fra.
Men jeg tvivler på om Pathos laver spyd til vores slags, men det behøver jo ikke være et problem hvis man kender en, der er ferm med en drejebænk.
På nær et enkelt spyd er alle mine kortet yderligere ned. Det er endnu nemmere med freeshafts 🙂Shooter & Shooter - Fotograf & Spearo
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My mistake… i didn’t get that this was a Sith tread…
But i can’t avoid thinking that if you decide to embrace the dark side in a country where it is difficult to find ammo for your weapon, you should consider the purchase of a basic equipment like:
– A vice, those small hobby models are fine
– Angle grinder with thin cutting disks
– Table grinder (sharpening points and bevelling)
– One thread cutting tool with M7
– Cutting oil ad libitumAll from Harald Nyborg excluding the M7 tool that must be of good quality…
Then you just need a few washers and sliders and you are ready to convert any Jedi spear into an evil darth…
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My mistake… i didn’t get that this was a Sith tread…
But i can’t avoid thinking that if you decide to embrace the dark side in a country where it is difficult to find ammo for your weapon, you should consider the purchase of a basic equipment like:
– A vice, those small hobby models are fine
– Angle grinder with thin cutting disks
– Table grinder (sharpening points and bevelling)
– One thread cutting tool with M7
– Cutting oil ad libitumAll from Harald Nyborg excluding the M7 tool that must be of good quality…
Then you just need a few washers and sliders and you are ready to convert any Jedi spear into an evil darth…
Ah, that’s right, since the spear would already be M7, I guess you could hand-cut the thread with patience. With that setup, it would always be easy to get spears.
A few years back, I bought an oversized Salvi Torsion 2 spear, as I wanted to try it out. I had the shop cut it down just in front of the shark fins before shipping it to me (very nice of the shop). Then I had a machinist taper it nicely for use as a freeshaft – though I could have done that myself with an angle grinder or on a rotating bench grinder.
Since I am obsessed with alleviating any nose heaviness, I have also solictied help in cutting down all my other standard spears to the absolute minimum and having a thread for the tail end cut.
While this means I have very neutral guns, it also means that with most of my spears there would not be room for a fat hvar between the folded down flopper and the muzzle, haha.
Shooter & Shooter - Fotograf & Spearo
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The Devoto spears are made in steel with medium hardness and good flexibility.
Pathos spears are made in spring steel with high hardness and low flexibility.
If you shoot on stones the Pathos will be much more difficult to bend than ge others… is behaving very much like the Rob Allen spears but without rust.
Downside is that if you manage somehow to bend it then it will be very difficult to straighten it again.
For longer guns or high power the spring steel is stiffer and will swing less increasing range and accuracy.
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Hi Lamberto
Do you know the alloy type of the Pathos spears and do you have any mechanical strength data? If not i can run some tests (XRF and hardness), to see if they are as good as you say.
The devotos are 17-4ph steel, but i haven’t bothered to check how good the heat treatment on them are.
Br, Mik -
Yes it would be interesting.
I’ll ask more data next week when they reopen from holiday.You are welcome to test.
Anyway it is not just down to bare numbers… just try both for a while and you’ll be able to compare overall performance and combination of factors.
The Devoto spears are exactly the same as Best Hunter, the producer is the same, located in Turkey and making very good guns and sell OEM in various countries…. and I’m trying to get those guns for DK since two years now 😉
I have been using those spears and Sigal’s for years but with the Pathos I’ve really been impressed… actually even more than Rob Allen spears.
Problem is that once they bend you can’t straighten them again without using a flame… and then goodbye strength… luckily I didn’t managed yet, even shooting with a demultiplied gun.
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Ah, finally… I have being reading so much on this and I finally found some info on a different board.
Thing is, for the longest time, I thought that Devoto, Sigalsub, Salvimar and Pathos were all made from 17-4ph.
But someone, somewhere else, stated that Pathos spears are actually made from Sandvik 7C27Mo2 which is indeed a stainless spring steel, right, Lamberto?
(Interestingly, when asked on the subject Sigalsub said their spears are from the Sandvik steel, too, but perhaps not this same one).I have cut down “rubber spears” for my oleos before but I am really interested in the Pathos spears. Lamberto, I noticed they are highly polished in the front but then become a little bit more rough for the remainder of the spear.
I was wondering if I can polish the whole length of the spear to that same smooth surface as the front? Or is there any kind of surface treatment that would be lost? I know with Sigalsub’s spears you can polish them without ill effect.[Edit] I found some data sheets – the Sandvik steel seems to have about 50% higher tensile strength than 17-4ph (1800MPa vs. 1300MPa and indeed higher hardness, too;-)
Shooter & Shooter - Fotograf & Spearo
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http://smt.sandvik.com/en/materials-center/material-datasheets/strip-steel/sandvik-7c27mo2/
and it requires a specialty oven to harden. Doesn’t seem DIY-able
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http://smt.sandvik.com/en/materials-center/material-datasheets/strip-steel/sandvik-7c27mo2/
and it requires a specialty oven to harden. Doesn’t seem DIY-able
Sure, but with 17-4ph you also need, ideally, 482C for an hour which is probably not easy for DIYers, either.
Though I have seen it mentioned that some of the modern kitchen ovens’ self cleaning program gets very close. So, if you are just making small parts, 17-4ph might not be a bad choice.Shooter & Shooter - Fotograf & Spearo
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The Steel is indeed different: the Pathos is much harder and has a higher module than Sigal. The color of the steel surface is also a giveaway of the thermal treatment: Sigal is more yellow and that would mean that the tempering has been made at higher temperature… but just a little…
I don’t remember much about steel (i’m not a mechanical engineer 😉 ) but the first tempering can be done at 230-250 Celsius… as soon as the steel become yellowish then it will start to rearange it’s molecular structure: the time necessary for a larger piece is longer but a 6-7mm rod should be pretty fast.
You can try… Warm it bright orange (not yellow) until amagnetic, let it cool slowly, work it as you wish, warm it up again bright orange until amagnetic, quench it in warm oil, warm it up again 230-240 degree until pale yellow and let it cool down slowly… a propane blowtorch should do if, obviously, your oven is smaller than 1,2 m in width 😛
Pathos use to temper a lot of steel into a large oven and the permanence in it is long… both to remove all internal strain from the steel and also because the quantity, but for a DIY project a range of approximation is normal.
There is no surface treatment so you can polish as much as you want 😉
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The Steel is indeed different: the Pathos is much harder and has a higher module than Sigal. The color of the steel surface is also a giveaway of the thermal treatment: Sigal is more yellow and that would mean that the tempering has been made at higher temperature… but just a little…
I don’t remember much about steel (i’m not a mechanical engineer 😉 ) but the first tempering can be done at 230-250 Celsius… as soon as the steel become yellowish then it will start to rearange it’s molecular structure: the time necessary for a larger piece is longer but a 6-7mm rod should be pretty fast.
You can try… Warm it bright orange (not yellow) until amagnetic, let it cool slowly, work it as you wish, warm it up again bright orange until amagnetic, quench it in warm oil, warm it up again 230-240 degree until pale yellow and let it cool down slowly… a propane blowtorch should do if, obviously, your oven is smaller than 1,2 m in width 😛
Pathos use to temper a lot of steel into a large oven and the permanence in it is long… both to remove all internal strain from the steel and also because the quantity, but for a DIY project a range of approximation is normal.
There is no surface treatment so you can polish as much as you want 😉
Cool, good to know on the polishing:-)
And yes, though I am not 100% sure I remember correctly on the tensile strength of the high carbon steel used in RA type shafts, I think the tensile strength for the Pathos steel could be very close to the RA (again, if they use that steel, someone somewhere else said they do 😉 ). So, I get why you are so stoked about these spear. Super strong (50% stronger than the best of the rest) and they don’t corrode like the RA spears.
I am actually thinking the spears offered by a custom spear builder in the US is from the same steel – they call it UHT or something like that (Ultra High Tensile, perhaps) and charge +100 USD for these spears, if I recall correctly.I am actually thinking that Pathos could be heat treating at pretty high temps – it seemed that to get to the quoted hardness for the steel, that they are said to be using, you need a very hot oven. Maybe they just polish the “tan” off later? If they do, that’s more work but the spears do look shiny and pretty.
My brand new Sigal spears have that burnt yellow-orange top layer, but as the Sigal people said: “Most things in an oven will become yellow on the surface;-)”. And indeed, the tan polishes off with regular use as my older silvery Sigal spears show.Anyways, I will def give the Pathos spears a shot (hohoho) sometime in the future. For now, I just need to figure out which thickness suits my guns the best;-).
Shooter & Shooter - Fotograf & Spearo
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Actually it is a lower temperature: Lower temperature mean higher hardness but less toughness… it will be harder but it can shatter easier… you need to find the right combination.
I don’t know how they do but Giacomo (De Mola… sales manager) told me that the process take almost 72 hours and that this is the reason why we should book spears in advance… they are extremely popular in Italy now and the production can’t cope with demand.
You want to see how tough they are?… this is with a Demultiplied speargun 😉
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I’m not talking about the tempering. No problem there, it’s the hardening with the stainless alloy steels that becomes impossible to do with a DIY approach.
Carbon steel you just heat to around 820 (non-magnetic) and then either oil or water quench depending on steel.
The Sandvik steel mentioned needed a much higher and specific temperature (1030), which is not possible unless you have access to that kind of oven that gives you such precise control. (this is common for most hardenable stainless steels.)
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I don’t know for sure as my memories about metal technology are 30 years old but I’m quite sure that with a butane gas torch should be quite easy to reach 1000 C… the butane torches used for tagpap have a flame temperature of almost 2000 C and a spear rod is very thin… I’ll ask to my neighbour that is a mechanical engineer working with special components in the weirdest metals… we even tried to make a spear with wolfram tip once….
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I dont doubt that you can reach 1030 or higher with a torch, but how will you know when you have reached 1030 degrees and how will you keep the piece evenly heated at 1030 for the 6 minutes holding time that the specsheet dictates?
Though it might just be an idea, to buy a piece of the sandvik steel, try a DIY harden approach and see how it turns out. It should be fairly evident if it has hardened satisfactorily. -
To build a spear from scratch it is certainly challenging (especially to make it straight) but to rescue or modify an old spear i don’t think so.
I have been refreshing my metallurgy memories now and the transaction between molecular structure martensite and austenite of a steel is caracterized by the loss of magnetic properties: after transaction temperature the steel become amagnetic… that is easy to see with a magnet fixed to the “forge” or to the bricks you use as forge.
To go above the required temperature has the only downside that if you heat it too much you’ll melt it and the rod can start bending under it’s own weight: luckily the “grandpa knowhow” don’t rely much on instruments but colours so it is enough not to pass the lemon-yellow colour to be safe.
My doubts are related to the transaction between treated part and rest of the shaft… if quenced completely it will retain it’s martensite structure but lose big part of it’s hardness becoming more tough instead… but that is something I could live with if it is a broken spear that I’m saving from death 😉
Here is a colour chart used by blacksmiths and there are many online… mild steel or stainless steel don’t have a big difference in colour chart and anyway less than it is appreciable by naked eye.
An IR termometre like those sold in hobby shops may do the job also… i have one somewhere and I’ll try next time it pass under my eyes 😉
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I agree with this when talking about std. carbon steel. However everything that I have heard about Stainless Steel, you cant use with this process. (Afaik as I understand, non-magnetic and hardening temperature don’t correspond on stainless, furthermore decarburization increases at higher temperatures, lower the carbon content, and hence potential hardness. (Which is why knifemakers seal their pieces in foil pouches, when hardening these stainless steels)
F.ex. check
http://behrensknive.dk/?page_id=870 or http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?78522-Mythbusting-RWL34-Heat-treating/ (Another stainless steel) -
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I’ve spoken with a blacksmith/spearo today in the shop: he suggested to place the spear into a tube full of water to limit the area that will be warmed up by the flame and when it reach the yellow lemon colour just let it drop down to quench it… he also said that oil can be dangerous because it can burn. After that temper at low temperature.
He told me that it will never be the same but will be usable… good enough for me.
Anyway I’ll ask Pathos if they can make some spear with the tread on the back… maybe they’ll do it if i can order 10-15 pieces: they already make spears with the tread in the front…
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Anyway I’ll ask Pathos if they can make some spear with the tread on the back… maybe they’ll do it if i can order 10-15 pieces: they already make spears with the tread in the front…
Please do!
I guess to offer the whole package, they would then need to source sliders, too? There are talks about first generation of Salvimar sliders being brittle. Devoto and Sigalsub’s should be better. But all of them have a pretty old school design. For the Members of The Tribe of Darth here, it seems quite a few of us have gone with the custom Delrin ones made by a young guy and his dad in Croatia (Tomba). They seem tougher and with better hydrodynamic design.
Pathos could also check out the Pelengas titanium sliders. Pelengas now have a slider design which they say don’t need the little steel washer behind the slider. But that would need proper testing. And it would not be a cheap item to produce in low volumes, I reckon.For people with naked/freeshaft, you can just make the screw-in tail end the same size as the shaft, I have a few spear tails like that that came with the Evo-Air vacuum muzzle, but I don’t think anyone sells these tail end as a loose part. Ah, I forgot about the hole behind the barb for the shooting line, that is also needed for naked shafts. Perhaps, just start with slider shafts for now…;-)
Ideally, despite the lower volume, they should be cheaper than normal band spears. There’s less work involved than having to weld shark fins on a “rubber spear”.
Speaking of which and to get back to the hardening processes. I have read that a lot of stainless steels can bend when you weld the fins onto them – so, they have to be straightened afterwards and that’s yet another reason why they are sometimes more expensive. With the high carbon spears, I think they just go with notches.Shooter & Shooter - Fotograf & Spearo
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I’ve tried to contact the Pathos guy but they are off-grid: tomorrow starts the Eudi 2016 in Bologna and all spearfishing people are there… we need to wait until Tuesday 😉
I am planning to order some Sigalsub instead… they already produce spears for airguns in the same steel as Pathos but with a higher attention to hydrodynamic (in Italy we have free-swimming fish mostly) instead of pure strength. Both with threaded end or naked spear from 6,5mm to 8mm.
The slider from Sigal is hydrodynamic type and i’ll take a few next time i order (soon).
Anyway… brace yourself because we are working hard to get into DK some REALLY exciting news for the “Dark Side” :woohoo:
Can you guess what is this?? 😛
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Well… ok i can’t keep it 😛
We have now the exclusive for Denmark of LG Sub and we will start with their “Ferrari of the airguns”… the Manilu Revolution!
100% machined components: handle in Delrin and butt in aluminium, trigger mechanism fully adjustable back/forth, vacuum head LG that fit all spears without need to replace the seal (slider seal system), reel LG mounted as standard, barrel 12mm with high speed piston and 7cm longer than another gun of same size (the 82 has the barrel of a 90), mechanism in demultiplication not direct… and tube full conical to improve maneuverability but not nose heavy thanks to the light materials of the head, valve extra short…
And, of course, Divecenter.dk will be responsible for the service in DK, spare parts and all the rest… 😉
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Yeah, I have definitely followed the development of the Revolution since it first appeared on the Italian forums and looked over every pic of since it came out and yes, it is indeed nice.
Let me know how it balances in the water, though? I would love to see a video of how it floats or slightly sinks without being held – like some of the videos of the C4 guns. As impressed as I was that a manufacturer finally pushed development of an oleo (like longer effective barrel and better line release), I was also surprised to see someone adding floats to his Revolution on the Italian forums. I sincerely hope this is not needed at all.No matter what, it’s a very cool looking gun and I am sure it shoots great. Their reels are nice, too. Jegwan and I have some of them. And I think Povlsen has their pump/manometer adapter. They make cool stuff and have been really nice to talk to in the past, too.
While I have you – for years, some people (like some of the Russian and Ukranian oleo designers, LG Sub and Calibro 12) have been stating that 12mm is the “ideal” size of piston but I have never been able to find a proper explanation as to why that is? Is is the best compromise between friction and weight of the piston and pressure needed in the gun or…?
I’d love to actually hear the LG designer’s reasoning and not just that 12mm is the perfect compromise between 11mm and 13mm, cuz that’s pretty obvious numbers-wise 😛Shooter & Shooter - Fotograf & Spearo
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Fryseren er tom…. 🙂
Såhh… jeg måtte tage ufine metoder i brug sammen med sønike sidste søndag. Vi støvede fiskestængerne af, og tog en tur på øresund i foliebakken (4 meter alu-jolle) Knægten fik sin havørred debut med en fisk på 3,1 og jeg var så ufin at nappe en på 4,2 kg…Begge fuldfede med løse skæl! Vi fik desuden en håndfuld gode torsk imellem 2-3 kg.Hvar softice lyder lidt bizzart – tror du ikke du har boet for længe i Kina Gekko? 😛
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