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Indlæg
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Hej.
Jeg er ved at samle udstyr sammen til UV jagt, men nu mangler jeg en harpun ,og er i tvivl om, hvilken type jeg skal købe. Den skal kunne bruges til både dag- og natjagt omkring nyborg. Jeg har kigget på to forskellige og vil gerne høre, om der er nogen der har erfaringer med disse, eller om I har andre forslag til, hvilken type harpun, jeg skal købe?
Jeg kan godt selv reparere, hvis der er noget der går i stykker.
Her er de to jeg har kigget på:
http://divecenter.dk/HARPUNER/PATHOS-LASER-HARPUN
http://www.kingfish.dk/salvimar-vuoto-60På forhånd tak:0))
Sboy 🙂
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Hej Sboy. 🙂
Jeg har en næsten ny Salvimar Predathor Vuoto 65 incl. linehjul til salg. Det er afløseren til den gamle Salvimar Vuoto som du har kig på hos kingfish. 🙂 Du kan få den for 900 bobs.
Den har både multer og HØ på samvittigheden. 🙂
Samme harpun hos kingfish (uden linehjul): http://www.kingfish.dk/salvimar-predathor-vuoto-65
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Hop du trygt på en Pathos. Jeg tror ikke at det er nogen underdrivelse at det er den bedste elastikgøb du kan opdrive i DK lige nu. Jeg har selv en Vuoto, og er ikke synderligt imponeret. Hvis du vil lege med trykluft skal du lidt op i længde, og jeg vil desuden anbefale dig at kigge på på Mares Sten hvis det skal være trykluft… (til at betale, og pålidelig kvalitet)
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Ikke for at forvirre, men jeg ville anbefale dig at gå efter noget helt tredje, nemlig en rollergun eller en demultiplied/”compound”.
Mørkets Fyrster vil selvfølgelig altid anbefale en pneumatisk, og det er så vidt jeg ved også særdeles effektive harpuner, men det forekommer mig at der kan være mere vedligehold på dem, og de er uden tvivl mere komplicerede at skille ad hvis noget ikke virker som det skal, og de bør udstyres med lidt forskellige custom-stumper hvis man vil optimere dem til at yde deres fulde potentiale. Heldigvis er der så adgang til top-notch support fra folk som Geckoen, Jégwan, Povlsen, eller andre, hvis noget driller.
Selv er jeg gået over til stort set udelukkende at jage med polespear, men de harpuner jeg har, og som stadig kommer med en tur i suppen en gang imellem, er ikke standardharpuner da jeg foretrækker max smæk for skillingerne kontra harpunlængde. Der er bunker at læse om dem her, og her.
Skulle du falde for fristelsen, kan disse typer af harpuner fås hos Lamberto (som også kommer herinde) fra divecenter.dk
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Mørkets Fyrster vil selvfølgelig altid anbefale en pneumatisk, og det er så vidt jeg ved også særdeles effektive harpuner, men det forekommer mig at der kan være mere vedligehold på dem, og de er uden tvivl mere komplicerede at skille ad hvis noget ikke virker som det skal, og de bør udstyres med lidt forskellige custom-stumper hvis man vil optimere dem til at yde deres fulde potentiale. Heldigvis er der så adgang til top-notch support fra folk som Geckoen, Jégwan eller andre, hvis noget driller.
Nææææh, nej da.
Jeg ville da sikkert også kigge meget på en Pathos Laser Open (Carbon?) :ohmy: 😛
Den serie får rigtigt gode ord med på vejen mange steder. Og hvis man køber den hos Lamberto (Divecenter) så er man i gode hænder. Jeg ville også klart spørge ham om ikke den er en god base til evt. senere hen at lave til en demultiplied gun. Hvis den er, så er man jo godt fremtidssikret.Og nej, al min overnstående elastikkærlighed er ikke en joke! Jeg vil til enhver tid anbefale luftgøbbe, hvis temperamentet og personligheden er til det. Men at få en gøb, der er i balance, med et godt spyd og som virker stort set fra biksen af, er slet ikke at kimse af – specielt som begynder.
Meeen, når det er sagt. Så er trykluft jo stadig kanonfedt;-). Men jeg er enig med Povlsen, gå lidt op i størrelse og gå efter en Sten eller den nye Predathor Vuoto (og ganske få, billige upgrades).
Jeg skal også lige huske at sige, at min viden om gummishooters mestendels er teoretisk og et resultat af at jeg har alt for meget tid til at surfe og gennemnørde på de forskellge fora;-). Men jeg synes stadig, jeg kan bevare min meget veludviklede kritiske sans, så jeg lukker ikke bare fiskebæ ud.
BTW. Nu hvor vi er ved nørderiet, så er der rigtigt meget snak på nogle andre fora om hvor fede de tynde 14-14.5mm elastikker med lille ID er (fra Primeline). De har potentielt samme power som de større, men er kortere med større strækprocent og pga. den mindre størrelse er der mindre rekyl, og derved større præcision ved dem. Der er en spearo, der bruger timevis på at gennemteste de her ting og der er ret vildt hvilken præcision og power han kan få ud af at skifte ned i elastiktykkelse og op i spydtykkelse på rigtigt mange guns.
De Pathos han har testet er dog længere end til DK brug, men stadigt super interessant til jer, der måske rejser til Norge eller andetsteds hen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE_gBg0MrHk&feature=youtu.beShooter & Shooter - Fotograf & Spearo
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Hej igen.
Jeg takker for de gode indlæg, er meget glad for den hjælp der er fra jer, jeg tror det bliver en pathos, jeg er dog i tvivl om hvor kraftig rekyllen er her tænker jeg på træfsikkerhed 🙂
“Povlsen” med hensyn til vuoto contra mares sten er det så funktionel eller kosmetisk der er problemet, hvis jeg skulle vælge en, hvilken længde ville du så foreslå?
“Mace” du skriver en rollergun ,kan det for eks. være en omer cayman E.T.
“Diving Gecko” jeg tænker, efter at have set indlægget om man skulle opgrader og købe en laser open pro og så sætte andre elastikker på, (mindre rekyl).
Endnu engang, mange tak for de gode respons. 🙂 🙂 -
En Mares Sten er ingen æstetisk skønhed, men det er en slider. Den Vuoto jeg har i kælderen er dårligt forarbejdet, og der er flere småting ved dens design som virker uigennemtænkt.
En Pathos kan, som Gecko skriver, senere modificeres med et RoiSub demultiplied system, som vel nærmest kan betegnes som Next-Gen rollergun. Hvis du kommer dertil så har du den sejeste gun man kan få med gummi som fremdrift!Køb for alt i verden ikke en Omer ET roller. De har fået elendig kritik, og der er et hav af dem til salg brugt – det tolker jeg som at de nok ikke er værd at samle på… (med fare for at lyde mavesur, så hold dig langt væk fra Omer og Sporasub i det hele taget, det er den direkte vej til dyre fejlkøb)
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”Mace” du skriver en rollergun ,kan det for eks. være en omer cayman E.T.
Jeg vil ikke anbefale at gå efter en railgun da, i hvert fald Omer’s ET (både Roller versionen og standarden, så vidt jeg husker), før har haft problemer med at spyddet kilede sig fast. Desuden er røret ovalt i tværsnit, og mig bekendt findes der ikke roller-muzzles som passer til den rørprofil, hvis man nu en dag skulle vælge at opgradere. Hvis ikke jeg byggede selv ville jeg nok snuppe en Pathos, men sørge for at få stumper med til at bygge den om til enten en roller eller en demulti-gun med det samme, traditionelle standardharpuner er desværre lysår bagefter hvad angår udnyttelse af elastikkerne, som tommelfingerregel kan man sige at du kan vride sådan ca. 30% mere energi ud af elastikkerne med f.eks. et roller-system, og alt efter hvordan du sætter det op kan du opnå noget der ligner ingen rekyl overhovedet, men man skal lige vænne sig til at en demulti-gun smider spyddet lidt anderledes, det er lidt længere tid om at komme op i omdrejninger, til gengæld smadrer du det ikke ved at drøne det ind i en sten på kort afstand. Smut en tur forbi Divecenter og ta’ en snak med Lamberto, han sku’ ku’ skrue noget fornuftigt sammen til dig, til en pris der er til at betale.
EDIT: Du behøver ikke være bange for rekylen selvom du skyder med en standardharpun, bare hold armen strakt, og hold godt fast på skyderen, langt de fleste jager jo med en standardharpun og de fanger fint fisk, det der med at sænke eller forsøge at fjerne rekylen helt er vist mest noget kun de allerstørste kæmpenørder går op i, men det er nu fedt at at ha’ en harpun som sparker mindre og alligevel har mere rækkevidde.
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[…]det der med at sænke eller forsøge at fjerne rekylen helt er vist mest noget kun de allerstørste kæmpenørder går op i, men det er nu fedt at at ha’ en harpun som sparker mindre og alligevel har mere rækkevidde.
Masowitz, check lige nogle af de der videoer, jeg har linket til. Du har ret i, at det er en nørdeting, men sagen er, at alt, alt for mange harpuner ikke kommer ideelt rigget fra fabrikken af. Selv nogle af highendmærkerne. Vi taler ikke om små forbedringer. Vi taler om, at han får en meget upræcis gøb til at skyde så han kan lave grupperinger på målet på 5cm fra 5-6m afstand. Bare ved at sklfte elastikker og nogle gange spyd.
At den Pathos skyder så godt som den gør har overrasket mange, som troede man ikke kunne få tynde Euroguns til at skyde så langt med punch og præcision..Shooter & Shooter - Fotograf & Spearo
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“Diving Gecko” jeg tænker, efter at have set indlægget om man skulle opgrader og købe en laser open pro og så sætte andre elastikker på, (mindre rekyl).
Endnu engang, mange tak for de gode respons. 🙂 🙂Om Elastiksjoverne
I al skinbarlig ærlighed, så er jeg en trykluftsfyr – men som sagt, så prøver jeg at holde lidt øje med hvad, der rører sig andre steder i harpunverdenen.
Så jeg må ærligt talt sige, at jeg ikke kan rådgive dig praktisk. Jeg løber bare sådan lidt rundt med lidt velkvalificeret sladder.
Når det er sagt, så er en af de ting, jeg ikke kan lide ved elatik, netop rekylet (og den generelt lavere power), så da jeg så de her Pathostests, især med de mindre elastikker, så blev jeg ret imponeret.Rollere tager noget af rekylet væk, demulitplied endnu mere. Begge disse løsninger bruger elastikkerne mere effektivt end en traditionel gun.
Pathos’en, hvis man kan bygge videre på den, kunne være en rigtig god gun at starte på og ikke en, som man senere udskifter fordi, man vokser fra den. Delene til demultiplied er slet ikke billige, så det spiller måske også ind og måske er det fedt at starte med noget helt enkelt som en traditionel gun.Jeg har selv denne her Pathos 120 i tankerne som første gun til en ven, der arbejder på et resort på Filipinerne. Han er ikke teknisk minded og skal bare have noget, der funker og er præcist. Det er også der, at ens personlighed og temperament spiller ind.
Hvis du er i Kbh, så kig forbi Divecenter. Han fører Pathos og er selv demultipliedkonvertit, så han ved, hvad han taler om.
Og Nu Til Luftgøbbene…
Igen, enig med Povlsen omkring luftgøbbene.Tag dig en Mares Sten med en Vuoto Muzzle (ca. 35-40E) fra Salvimar. Ekstra pakninger til selvsamme (9E). Nyt spyd – dog har de lidt længere Stens vist et OK spyd fra start af (eller ca. 20-25E) og måske en ny slidering fra Tomba (5E). Så har du et seupt, der funker, er gennemtestet og ikke er til at ødelægge.
Eller kig på en Predathor Vuoto, som allerede kommer med et OK spyd og med Vuoto-vacuummuzzlen. Så der skal du bare have ekstra pakninger (9E) og evt. en slidering fra Tomba (5E) oveni for at komme på Stenniveau. Jeg vil tro, at Predatho Vuotoen ender med at være billigere.
Den ser også federe ud i dens nyere design, men som med alt førstegenerationslegetøj kan der være børnesygdomme. Dog er det eneste, der indtil videre har været med Predathoren en dårlig slidering (overvej derfor en fra Tomba). Men måske har de fået styr på den lille del til 2016.
Predator Vuotoen har et lidt sejere aftræk end Stenen, men der skulle ikke være alverdens forskel.Ingen grund til Vuoto-gøbben i dit link. Predathor Vuoto eller Sten. Simple as that;-)
De kortere trykluftsharpuner kan være lidt svære at få helt neutrale i vandet. De er lidt tunge, især i næsen, men fra 90cm burde det være OK. Men der er måske andre, der kan byde ind med betragtninger her. Mine egne harpuner har kulfiberrør og ultrakorte spyd, da jeg er superallergisk overfor enhver næsetunghed. Andre er helt OK med en smule af det.
Husk også at trykluftsharpuner er kortere end elastikharpuner, selv hvis de har samme “modellængde”. En Predathor 90er er vist ca. 97cm fra muzzle til enden af gøbben og dens spyd er vel ca. 100-105cm (?). En Pathos 90er har et spyd på 120cm og jeg har læst, at den er 126cm lang i ladt tilstand, tror jeg. Et skud på tærsklen er, at den vil være ca. 110 (+/-5cm) lang uden spyd.
Shooter & Shooter - Fotograf & Spearo
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Masowitz, check lige nogle af de der videoer, jeg har linket til.
Det gør jeg altid. 😉
Du har ret i, at det er en nørdeting, men sagen er, at alt, alt for mange harpuner ikke kommer ideelt rigget fra fabrikken af. Selv nogle af highendmærkerne. Vi taler ikke om små forbedringer. Vi taler om, at han får en meget upræcis gøb til at skyde så han kan lave grupperinger på målet på 5cm fra 5-6m afstand. Bare ved at sklfte elastikker og nogle gange spyd.
At den Pathos skyder så godt som den gør har overrasket mange, som troede man ikke kunne få tynde Euroguns til at skyde så langt med punch og præcision..Ja, det er imponerende at han kan få den til at ramme så godt på den afstand, nu er det jo så også en 120’er men alligevel. Hmm, det kunne være man skulle overveje at prøve de der Primeline elastikker, hvis man kan få så meget af rekylen dæmpet på en std-harpun, må det gøre seriøse underværker for en roller eller demulti. Det er ikke fordi der er det store rekyl på min roller som den er sat op nu med 18mm mains og dobbelt sæt 16mm boostere, og min demulti har stort set ingen rekyl med dobbelt sæt 17mm. Der er jo lige noget med vandtemperaturen, har du læst noget om hvordan Primeline opfører sig i koldere vand?
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Masowitz, check lige nogle af de der videoer, jeg har linket til.
Det gør jeg altid. 😉
Godt så! 😉
Ja, det er imponerende at han kan få den til at ramme så godt på den afstand, nu er det jo så også en 120’er men alligevel. Hmm, det kunne være man skulle overveje at prøve de der Primeline elastikker, hvis man kan få så meget af rekylen dæmpet på en std-harpun, må det gøre seriøse underværker for en roller eller demulti. Det er ikke fordi der er det store rekyl på min roller som den er sat op nu med 18mm mains og dobbelt sæt 16mm boostere, og min demulti har stort set ingen rekyl med dobbelt sæt 17mm. Der jo lige noget med vandtemperaturen, har du læst noget om hvordan Primeline opfører sig i koldere vand?
Nix, er ikke stødt på noget om temperaturen. Ej heller om, hvor meget de mister når de har været ladt længe. Og dog, jeg synes han nævnte noget positivt med en ret lille reduktion over tid, men tør ikke lægge hovedet på blokken vedr. præcis hvilken elastikker det var.
Jeg tænkte også selv lidt over det med om det er værd at bruge dem på rollers og demogøbbe, men der kommer jeg ret meget til kort. Men jeg kan jo altid lire lidt af, so here goes nothing, og jeg kan sagtens tage fejl 😛 :
Mht. rekylet, så bliver det reduceret på en roller fordi en del af elastikken trækker modsat spyddet (og resten af elastikken) i skuddet. På en demo er det alle og det hele af elastikkerne, der trækker modsat spyddet og modsat traditionelle elastikker. Sagt på en anden måde; elastikkerne på en traditionel gøb bliver smidt fremad i skuddet og giver rekyl bagud men på en demogun bliver de smidt bagud og modvirker derfor rekylet fra spyddet. På en roller, er det sådan half-half, da den del af elastikken, der ligger ovenpå jo smides frem, men den underliggende del smides tilbage. Det giver vel rundt regnet, at elastikkens rekyl udlignes, men ikke som på en demo, at den direkte kan modvirke spyddets rekyl (tror jeg…)
Så jeg ved ikke om man vinder meget på rekylkontoen med de tynde elastikker på en demo?Der er jo det med, at de er nemmere at lade og så fylder de lidt mindre på gøbben, så det tæller vel stadig positivt. Men jeg tror, at Lamberto eller andre kan svare på det her.
Men hvad rigger Roisub sine harpuner med?
Shooter & Shooter - Fotograf & Spearo
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Hej igen ,efter længere tids overvejelse, tror jeg det bliver denne her fra neos:
http://www.neos-sub.com/prodotto.asp?id=210
samt en dry muzzle: http://www.neos-sub.com/prodotto.asp?id=542
Og div pakninger:http://www.neos-sub.com/prodotto.asp?id=537,http://www.neos-sub.com/prodotto.asp?id=63.
Er dog i tvivl om det skal være en 84 cm eller 100 cm? 🙂
Håber valget er rigtig, har lagt laser pro lidt på hylden, efter at have læst om munksgaard`s problemer med genladning i vandet.
Ved ikke om i andre har samme problemer med elastik gøb. 🙂
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84 cm er std. valget til DK. 100 cm kræver lidt teknik i ladefasen.
Hvis jeg var dig ville jeg også købe et, eller to ekstra spyd med. Neo er mig bekendt det billigste “spyd-sted”, og når du alligevel skal betale fragten…Omkring ladning af open muzzle, så lad dig ikke afskrække af Munkens bøvl, alle andre kan godt finde ud af det 🙂
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Uden selv at være en Darth, tror jeg også at jeg ville gå efter en 84’er hvis jeg skulle bruge en pneumatisk, der er jo som sagt mere smæk for skillingen cm for cm i en tryklufter ift. en standard, og der er sjældent sigt til at retfærdiggøre en lang skyder i danske vande, man skal jo også kunne manøvrer rundt med gøppen mellem sten og tang osv. Der er så lige noget med at man skal vænne sig til at sigte med pneumatiske, men det tror jeg kun er noget som er relevant for de jægere som går fra elastik til luft, så hvis du starter med en tryklufter bør du ikke opleve problemer med at ramme.
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NEOSSUB
Jeg har tidligere købt hos NeosSub. De var gode.Men jeg er ikke sikker på, at f.eks. deres spydudvalg er super.
[Jeg vrøvler mht. spyddene. De fører Devotosub, som er helt, helt fint.]
Jeg er ret sikker på, at Povlsen og Jegwan også har købt der en håndfuld gange.EDOSUB
Men jeg har også handlet hos EdoSub.it og han er kanon, på trods af en lidt gammeldags hjemmeside 😛 . Superservice, godt engelsk og han har nærmest alt i tilbehør. F.eks. har han et godt udvalg i spyd:
Fra Devotosub
Fra SigalsubDog ser det ud til, at han ikke lige har en Sten 84 hjemme, men email ham, han er god på email og måske er det nemt for ham at få en hjem:
TrykluftsharpunerDu kan også overveje at bestille et o-ringssæt hjem – så kan du servicere harpunen om et par år eller ti 🙂
Første tilbud jeg fik fra ham var lidt for dyrt i fragt, men så kiggede han lidt rundt og fandt noget billigere.
Jeg kan klart, klart anbefale ham 🙂
SPEARFISHING.DE
Min allerseneste ordre var fra spearfishing.de.
Jeg bor i Kina og skulle have nogle ting herud, og fik dem sendt til en ven i Tyskland, der skulle denne vej.Men selvom udvalget og den indledende service var rigtig god (de skar nogle spyd ned for mig), så lavede de, angiveligt, fejl i forsendelsen og pakken nåede ikke frem til min ven til tiden på trods af løfter om det modsatte.
Personligt ved jeg ikke helt om jeg vil bruge dem igen, men deres priser er gode og jeg vil tro, at jeg bare var uheldig. Så, de er sikkert stadig en anbefaling værd, så længe man ikke er på en stram deadline.
OM SPYD
Mht. spyd, så er både Devoto og Sigalsubspyddene i hærdet 17-4phstål og sammenlignelige i stivhed. Sigalsubspyddene har en undersænket flopper mens Devotoflopperen ligger “ovenpå”.
Personligt synes jeg, at Sigalsubene er lidt mere “forfinede”, mens Devoto er lidt mere rock’n roll.
I teorien burde Devotoerne være lidt stærkere, da der ingen udfræsning er i spidsen, mens Sigalsubene måske er en lillebitte smule mere præcise på de lange distancer.Opdatering vedr. spyd.
Jeg har lige lavet en hurtig test ved at spænde et Devoto og et Sigalsubspyd op ved siden af hinanden på mit bord med to skruetvinger og et udhang på ca. 50cm (samme uunderstøttede udhang på begge spyd). Dernæst hang jeg 4kg bly i hvert sit spyd og målte hvor meget de bøjede – jeg trak mit tøjstativ helt op til spyddet og satte en streg på stativet.
De bøjede præcis lige meget. Jeg vil tro, at det kan oversættes til, at de er lige stive.Der er ved at være en standard på de gode spyd, hvor mange af producenterne siger, at deres spyd er lavet i 17-4ph metal hærdet til 52-53hrc. Det siger f.eks Pathos, Sigal og Devoto alle. Jeg ved ikke, om det er italienske “kinersertal” for når jeg har prøvet at læse lidt på det, så har jeg endnu ikke set en gængs process som kommer over 44-47hrc. Måske der er folk herinde, der er kloge på det?
Shooter & Shooter - Fotograf & Spearo
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OM SPYD
Mht. spyd, så er både Devoto og Sigalsubspyddene i hærdet 17-4phstål og sammenlignelige i stivhed. Sigalsubspyddene har en undersænket flopper mens Devotoflopperen ligger “ovenpå”.
Personligt synes jeg, at Sigalsubene er lidt mere “forfinede”, mens Devoto er lidt mere rock’n roll.
I teorien burde Devotoerne være lidt stærkere, da der ingen udfræsning er i spidsen, mens Sigalsubene måske er en lillebitte smule mere præcise på de lange distancer.Opdatering vedr. spyd.
Jeg har lige lavet en hurtig test ved at spænde et Devoto og et Sigalsubspyd op ved siden af hinanden på mit bord med to skruetvinger og et udhang på ca. 50cm (samme uunderstøttede udhang på begge spyd). Dernæst hang jeg 4kg bly i hvert sit spyd og målte hvor meget de bøjede – jeg trak mit tøjstativ helt op til spyddet og satte en streg på stativet.
De bøjede præcis lige meget. Jeg vil tro, at det kan oversættes til, at de er lige stive.Der er ved at være en standard på de gode spyd, hvor mange af producenterne siger, at deres spyd er lavet i 17-4ph metal hærdet til 52-53hrc. Det siger f.eks Pathos, Sigal og Devoto alle. Jeg ved ikke, om det er italienske “kinersertal” for når jeg har prøvet at læse lidt på det, så har jeg endnu ikke set en gængs process som kommer over 44-47hrc. Måske der er folk herinde, der er kloge på det?
Jeg er helt enig med det mht. hårdhed. 44-47 tyder på at være maks. opnåelige for 17-4. (Skyldes nok den meget lave andel af kul. 0.07%) Det er vist meget lidt rustfrit stål der kan hærdes i nævneværdig grad. (Og jeg har ikke fundet noget i de dimensioner spydfiskere bruger.)
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Start with a Pathos Laser Carbon 90…. then after one season you can decide if you like it as it is or if you want to change it in Demo2, Fusion, Roller…. the choice of customization for a Laser is huge because all makers of roller/demo kit recognize it as the best base for customization.
Rubbers: In cold water the rubberguns are lousy… you need the right rubber mix (that will became hard to load) and even with that you will need to unload/reload every 15 minutes maximum to refresh the rubber’s elastic memory…. yes it is a pain but only in the cold months where there is very few fish around and a good movie in front of the fireplace is often a better option than splashing in the sea 😉 ….. BUT THEN comes May :woohoo: :woohoo: and as soon as the water rise above 10 degree the dances will begin and the rubberguns are just playing a better music than airguns!! 😉
Cheers!!
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Hej Lamberto, mener du, at det ikke er muligt at jage med en elastik harpun om vinteren uden at genlade ofte, jeg spørger fordi jeg kan se at nogle bruger elastik her om vinteren, findes der vinterelastikker. 🙂
Of course it is possible and very common also but not optimal: airguns don’t suffer cold water but rubber yes… and a lot.
Some rubbers, especially the progressive type, become like wood and lose 40-50% or more of their power, while a reactive rubber in general suffer less but will be harder to load as they become stiff.
Basically in Denmark you would need two sets of rubbers, one for the winter and one for the summer… like the car tires.
All seasoned spearos have learned in the hard way that in cold waters the rubbers loose too much after 15-20 minutes: if you simply unload and reload they will be much better if you meet the big one.
So in my opinion the airguns with vacuum heads beats the rubber guns in water below 10 degrees, draw on 10-15 degrees and stay behind when 15+…. but on the other hand the season become interesting with water temperatures above 10 degrees… so a rubberband gun is the wisest choice.
A rubber mix able to withstand low temperatures with minimum losses simply don’t exist as latex base: we have asked a few producers and none has given us certainty of good results… and the minimum quantity for a test is 1500 meters… enough for 3000 spearguns
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Yes, the rubber suggested by Pathos is the Anaconda XP but you can also use the Sigalsub Extreme… both in 16mm.
I don’t know if the Sigal is still in stock in 16mm but I’ll check : if you need it just email me at [email protected]
Remember that Pathos and all other mediterranean companies consider “cold” water below 15 degrees… they would never believe that there are people who fish in water just 2-3 degrees above freezing point!
We have tested Sigal’s brown and purple series and Pathos’s SP on traditional guns but not the XP: that has been tested only in powerful demultiplied spearguns and works fine considered the temperature… in any case there is a considerable loss of power compared to summertime and this is valid for all kind of rubbers.
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Yes, the rubber suggested by Pathos is the Anaconda XP but you can also use the Sigalsub Extreme… both in 16mm.
I don’t know if the Sigal is still in stock in 16mm but I’ll check : if you need it just email me at [email protected]
Remember that Pathos and all other mediterranean companies consider “cold” water below 15 degrees… they would never believe that there are people who fish in water just 2-3 degrees above freezing point!
We have tested Sigal’s brown and purple series and Pathos’s SP on traditional guns but not the XP: that has been tested only in powerful demultiplied spearguns and works fine considered the temperature… in any case there is a considerable loss of power compared to summertime and this is valid for all kind of rubbers.
Have you seen the testing work done by the spearo in Quwait? He does some very extensive pool testing, probably the best of any out there and if his conclusions are to believed, it makes sense to look into the small ID Primeline range in about 14mm OD. Supposedly, the Sigal rubbers are made by Primeline, too but it is a different formulation and as far as I recall the tester likes them less than Primeline’s own offering.
Go on youtube and look for Pathos 130 Laser Carbon test and it should show up. Actually, all of his tests are really interesting and pretty much all of them come to the same conclusion – the smaller rubbers are better. Less recoil gives better precision and though they may have less rubber in them, it is made up for by having more effective band length as they are cut shorter. Also, should be easier to load.Of course, this has nothing to do with the water temps, I was just interested in hearing your thoughts on the 14mm rubbers. Only thing is, he rarely tests anything shorter than 105cm:-(
Shooter & Shooter - Fotograf & Spearo
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@Geko
Yes I’ve seen it and that test is just a bad joke for anybody who has a minimum of engineering preparation… good enough for youtube but nothing else.First of all it is obvious that the distance between the handle to the trigger is not correct for his hand (all shots to the left… a classic) and he take a while to learn to correct… if the rubbers where tested in the reverse order the result would have been the opposite.
If one want to test a gun/rubbers in a serious way should start to cut off all induced errors: the bigger error is acutally that of the shooter and it change person to person so this doesn’t make any sense.
Furthermore the test is not just to see the speargun standard error (all guns have a fixed deviation independent from the shooter induced error) but to understand the efficacy at a given distance: it is not only to hit the target but also to understand the penetration (residual energy) at that distance… you should be able to catch the fish and not only hit it.
He doesn’t change spear when changing rubbers and that also is a big mistake… can’t compare a 7mm spear shot with 18mm or 14mm… it doesn’t make any sense because you’ll change the speed big time: the 14 will be more accurate and have better penetration but will be much slower and have a lower residual energy. The 18 will be faster, less accurate but knock down the fish on impact… it is like being pierced by a lance or a needle.
His conclusion about faceted tips is totally wrong and the obvious denial of his own error due to incorrect handle-trigger distance: a spear tip like that is totally neutral in the water and the deviation of the spears is given by the barb shape in a much higher level… that is why Pathos, Rob Allen and other bluewater brands offer reversed barbs that open downwards.
Those tips have been around for 30 years and tested millions of times with scientific methods… no deviation whatsoever.
A reverse barb will influence the last meters of the shot keeping the tip higher and will be more efficient in holding the fish.Rubbers… testing rubbers that way is another sign of not understanding how they work: the test, when done by prepared people is based on measuring the residual energy over a span of time and not after 10 seconds… you can have very powerful rubbers that after 5 minutes have lost 50% of their tension and others less powerful that pull also after 2 hours.
Here you can see an example of real testing results made by an expert.. http://antolas.it/Antolas%20blue/sub_elastici-approf.htmAs for the 14mm rubbers… i love that combination: 2×14,5mm @ 360-380% with 6,25/6,5 mm spear. The resulting shot is precise and very fast, perfect for Scandinavian fish. I suggest this setting for havørred and mullets…
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@Lamberto: If you would like to tests different rubbers tension over time, I would be able to do that at my work at it would require maximum ½ hour for preparation.
//Benjamin -
@Geko
Yes I’ve seen it and that test is just a bad joke for anybody who has a minimum of engineering preparation… good enough for youtube but nothing else.First of all it is obvious that the distance between the handle to the trigger is not correct for his hand (all shots to the left… a classic) and he take a while to learn to correct… if the rubbers where tested in the reverse order the result would have been the opposite.
If one want to test a gun/rubbers in a serious way should start to cut off all induced errors: the bigger error is acutally that of the shooter and it change person to person so this doesn’t make any sense.
Furthermore the test is not just to see the speargun standard error (all guns have a fixed deviation independent from the shooter induced error) but to understand the efficacy at a given distance: it is not only to hit the target but also to understand the penetration (residual energy) at that distance… you should be able to catch the fish and not only hit it.
He doesn’t change spear when changing rubbers and that also is a big mistake… can’t compare a 7mm spear shot with 18mm or 14mm… it doesn’t make any sense because you’ll change the speed big time: the 14 will be more accurate and have better penetration but will be much slower and have a lower residual energy. The 18 will be faster, less accurate but knock down the fish on impact… it is like being pierced by a lance or a needle.
His conclusion about faceted tips is totally wrong and the obvious denial of his own error due to incorrect handle-trigger distance: a spear tip like that is totally neutral in the water and the deviation of the spears is given by the barb shape in a much higher level… that is why Pathos, Rob Allen and other bluewater brands offer reversed barbs that open downwards.
Those tips have been around for 30 years and tested millions of times with scientific methods… no deviation whatsoever.
A reverse barb will influence the last meters of the shot keeping the tip higher and will be more efficient in holding the fish.Rubbers… testing rubbers that way is another sign of not understanding how they work: the test, when done by prepared people is based on measuring the residual energy over a span of time and not after 10 seconds… you can have very powerful rubbers that after 5 minutes have lost 50% of their tension and others less powerful that pull also after 2 hours.
Here you can see an example of real testing results made by an expert.. http://antolas.it/Antolas%20blue/sub_elastici-approf.htmAs for the 14mm rubbers… i love that combination: 2×14,5mm @ 360-380% with 6,25/6,5 mm spear. The resulting shot is precise and very fast, perfect for Scandinavian fish. I suggest this setting for havørred and mullets…
[EDIT] Long post ahead, sorry;-)
I am actually wondering if we have watched the same guy;-)
For me, and yes you are the engineer, not I, I come from a background of racing competition sailboats and when we did one-on-one testing in reg. to boat speed, the rule was to only change one parameter at a time at one boat. If you change more, than you don’t know which of the parameters made the difference. I am pretty sure this is standard in many other area;-).
He shoots one spear, takes note of how it shoots in terms of accuracy and penetration. Then he changes the rubber setup and repeat the test and gets more accuracy and penetration with the same spear. I fail to see how that method is a failure? Then sometimes, to see if he can get even more power/punch out of the gun he changes to a thicker spear and sometimes that works, sometimes not.
On the point of whether he shoots left or not, as long as he does it consistently, I don’t care much;-). Obviously, there will be user error/uncertainty involved as it is not a robot shooting the gun. But yeah, his point that everyone should hurry up and make custom grips is probably too much. People hold and shoot guns differently. If it feels it helped him, then good. But many people are totally fine with the standard grip. But the fundamental assertion that a high set ergonomic handle helps with controlling recoil and enhance accuracy I will not contend. And after all, that is what a Pathos handle and design is;-)
I have no real opinion about his statement that tricut spears are generally less accurate that pencil points – I have not done testing or ever shot tricut spears. On the other hand, I don’t have reason to doubt it either as if he has actually tested, which I think he did a while back. I think he did: Same gun, same rubbers, same target – two different spear types. As I see it, the only thing that can swing the result then is cheating or a mental fondness for pencil point that makes him inadvertently shoot less precisely with tricuts 😛
But let me ask him specifically about this. I will get back when I have an answer.I agree with your point that there could be a flaw in shooting as soon as you have loaded – if different rubbers have different efficiency fall-off over time then obviously that is a mistake in the method. I think he actually admitted to that but had done a test years ago, showing that the fall off is not different enough that he felt it would impact the testing much. Obviously, “feel” and “not impacting much” aren’t really scientifically kosher. I wonder if he can be persuaded to run a test for this, I can ask.
A penetration test should be enough. Maybe keep gun loaded for 15mins? Longer?Here is my take on him from my personal viewpoint as an interested and nerdy spearo, if you don’t mind:
Overall, the guy is super picky but still, he loves the Pathos range of guns and his personal opinion is that they are probably the best bang for the buck out there. He has stated plenty of times that he is amazed how well this particular brand of light rail gun handles being powered up. To the point that it can compete with or beat many bigger, way more expensive guns. His opinion that it is a great gun which can be made even more great with very slight modifying is more than can be said for a lot of other brands out there – and it is his personal opinion.
If I was a vendor, I would treasure someone without economic interests in a brand saying that. Even for my beloved pneumatics – even the one hailed as the best and most modern, there is, of course, room for improvement.Based on his testing – and not just my outmost respect for the best spearo shop back home 😉 – I am actually trying to get a local Chinese friend to go with a Pathos 120;-). We will see if I succeed. And when you know how much in love I am with airguns, this is a big statement;-)
I am still waiting for someone who is not a manufacturer to actually build a test tank and test these things or put the pool time in to test these things for the smaller guns used by many of us. There is so much talk, and very little testing.
If you read this far, I could use your advice on the following;):
I am hoping to go on a spearing trip soonish with a custom/DIY Mares Mirage +120 and I want to spend the first few days in a pool shooting the gun with 7mm, 7.5mm and 8mm spears which I am trying hard to source before the trip.
The thing is, I have a feeling, after reviewing some older videos, that a Mirage is actually quite capable of overpowering the 7mm shafts as I can see it wobble a lot on departure. Also, on that same trip when I gradually brought up the pressure over some weeks, I strangely started to lose accuracy – again, my theory now is that the 7mm spear was becoming overpowered.So, my plan is to start with one spear and shoot for accuracy and penetration and gradually up the pressure (“change to stronger bands”) until performance drops or I can no longer load the gun. Then go to next bigger spear and repeat the tests. And finally compare the best result for each individual spear.
One thing this will not take into consideration is the speed of the shaft. This is very much a grey area to me. Is speed more important than final energy carried by the spear? It probably depends a lot on what type of fish you hunt? For skitty reef fish, speed is probably better than high impact energy whereas for a big pelagic fish coming close to you, higher penetration is probably more advantageous.
Let me know, if this is the right way to test? Pool testing takes a long, long time and it would be silly to waste this time.
Shooter & Shooter - Fotograf & Spearo
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Thanks Bejamin. The measuring of the tension after X time is a parameter that can be measured quite easily with a digital scale set on continuous reading but it is not the important factor… what is important is the residual energy.
The residual energy on an extended elastomer is the instantaneous tension minus the hydraulic losses that happen during the contraction phase. The only way to measure those losses is to measure the initial potential energy and subtract the released energy after contraction. An elastomer in that situation behave like a fluid and the internal losses can be defined “hydraulic losses” as the moleculas contract again… temperature is a BIG factor as it affect the speed of contraction.
Overall is not important to have a scientific reading but more to understand until which temperature and which extension coefficient it is convenient to use one rubber instead another… we have a team of people who test our gear in all conditions and for an average long time and this give me a confirmation if my initial feelings on a product are correct.
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I am actually wondering if we have watched the same guy;-)
Yes we have…
If you test a rubber that way you will only find out that a 14 is giving you less power than a 18… in that case is enough a digital hook-scale to measure how many Kg you get from a specific rubber at a specific extension coefficient.
In this way he has got material to evaluate the influence of a rubber on that one spear but when a rubber is not made for that specific range of thickness it has no value on the practical side.
When you test a boat, let’s say the jib minimum angle, you play with H rail and adjust the main accordingly… you don’t simply close the jib more and leave the main sheet alone so to let the refuse spoil the main flow… well, for the spearguns is the same.. there is always more than one factor to play with: one rubber is intended for one spear range… and surely a 14 doesn’t give it’s best on a 7mm spear! The 18 is less penetrating?… at what extension coefficient was it pulled and was the spear straight on impact or angled down? This has a massive impact on how it perform.
Penetration is also a factor that you can’t evaluate without taking into account and measure the speed: measure the speed at the moment of impact and you will have a more precise reading of the penetration INDEPENDENTLY from the angle on which the spear tip hit the target… because considering the spin of a spear it is very much a matter of luck.
Speed is all… in spearguns testing, for pure ballistic purposes, the speed is the prime parameter: E=M*S² where M is mass and therefore will be easy to calculate the residual Energy that is the main objective… he should have placed a camera sideways to the target on 100 FPS and measure the distance covered between two frames: look at the two frames here (50 FPS) and you’ll see that this spear is traveling at ~43 m/s… double of the speed of a traditional speargun 😉 (Demo2 custom :woohoo: )
You can also see how bended is the spear and that is not traveling straight but at an angle.
If you look at a target-shooting competition you will see that the athletes use really fluffy rubbers… single 14mm or less.. even 12-10mm sometime with spears 6mm! This way the precision is enhanced but a fish would probably brush it off.
Handle and error: the Pathos handle is simply great BUT is not fitting everybody and that is why they have made an universal handle. Looking at the guy video i would suggest him to look that the finger is positioned correctly on the trigger (distance handle/trigger) and, especially, to check that the spear is straight… which may very well be the cause of left-shooting. Another deviation factor is the kind of line… I use very fast guns and the line type is a massive change in shots… the best (but more unpractical of all) is the fly-fishing line, followed by breaded dyneema (also unpractical), then coated dyneema to end with a monoline… for traditional spearguns is the opposite.
Tri-cut spears: the tricut faces are 120 degree from each other… each will deviate the flow in a direction 120 degree from the other two… the forces nullify each other. A bended spear is what make the difference and it is very difficult to see it sometime if you don’t have built a spear-testing rail: two parallel steel tubes with 1 degree fall… just let the spear (without barb) roll down and you’ll see immediately if it is bended.
Speed on fishing: When i was a joung spearo (more than 30 years ago :pinch: ) it was possible to catch dentex in my area even for beginners… then Marco Bardi killed all the slow ones 😉 and after few years it was obvious that their speed of reaction was faster than the time taken for a spear to reach them! Just to be clear i must add that in Italy it is illegal to fish at night and the shots to dentex are in general 2-4 meters distant.
Fishing in tropical waters i learned that an airgun (without vacuum head at that time) has small chances to hit a fast barrier fish.. i needed to scourge Venezuela to find a Cressi rubbergun!! -
The main error of a speargun is to lift the tail of the spear during the shot: that is why the spearguns, especially the long ones, are nose heavy… not because the designers don’t know Archimedes law!
When the error is lateral the cause is almost always either a bended spear or a shooter error: handle, trigger, position of wrist/elbow and so on.
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Sorry, I actually referred to the wrong test, I was mixing up the 120 and 130.
Oh, it actually seems like it is the old handle, not sure if that should make a difference, though?
In the 120 test, his accuracy is pretty much the same with the stock rubbers and the small ID ones. But his penetration (speed, I guess) is much bigger with the thinner rubbers. Yes, he shoots left on all the tricut spear shots – but when he changes to his favorite pencil point spear he does not. Same grip, same rubbers, same thickness and length of spear, just with a different type of spear tip. So, either he, as human being, shoots “better” with that spear somehow or that spear is more precise. Penetration goes down by a whole lot though. This is at 5-6m, and as such, I am pretty sure it’s not really a real world issue. Especially not if any vectoring of any given spear is always in the same direction.
[EDIT – hadn’t seen your points about bent spears when I wrote this]On the sail trim analogy:
You don’t as a rule have to change you mainsail trim just cuz you change your jib. I know, in theory, this is a bit the wrong way around but if I have the twist and camber I want in my main and it is corresponding to the jib, but I want more camber in my jib, I can get that and still have the jib twist according to the main.
I have spent countless hours/days doing one-on-one with a world champ of a one-design class in Denmark (we were not bad outselves 😉 ). This is a one design class where we raced/trained hard all year round, where most people used the same brand of sails and where the top sailors had a very good idea of how trim should be. So, we could lock in a lot of parameters and then change one thing at a time. Mind you, I am not talking about huge changes, but perhaps 1 cm, less sheeting in on a jib and perhaps moving the track ever so slightly forward. And then sail straight for 2-3 mins and see if you gained half a boat length. Of course, if you hit a wave badly or one helmsman is less good than the other, these changes are hard to quantify, but when you do it hour after hour, day after day, you can actually make valid conclusions.Shooter & Shooter - Fotograf & Spearo
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Got all your other points:-)
Yeah, I could not see how a tricut should put pressure/lift more in one direction then another. Bent spear or shooting line asymmetrical drag sounds plausible.
Wobbly slip tips on the other hand is probably worth more of a discussion.Also, I don’t know how many time he actually shoots his penetration tests. I mean, he uses that test to gauge whether excessive spearwhip has set in and is robbing the shaft of speed/energy. But as you say, if the shaft hits while in the bendy part of its oscillation as opposed to when it is straight that could probably have a big say in penetration.
Got you on counting frames from a “high speed” camera (which could just be a GoPro shooting at 120fps). I had that in mind for my own test, too. As I mentioned earlier, on my last trip I gradually increased pressure in my gun but at some point in this process my accuracy dropped off which puzzled me at the time.
I have come across that “left shooting” mentioned quite a bit. But can’t recall seeing a proper explanation. I get the tail being bumped up on a vertical plane – but what is the exact reason for the left shooting?
Anyways, the Pathos guns are getting a lot of love on the different forums and as I said, I still want to try to get my friend to get one:-). He actually just have to try spearing first – he is a freediving and scuba instructor with his own resort in the Philippines, so I hope to have him converted soon! haha.
Oh, last question. What’s the deal with the HRC numbers on all the Italian shafts? I am genuinely interested since I might have to have some threaded shafts made locally for my upcoming trip.
(That’s one thing the tester got wrong in the 120cm test – he states when changing from one spear to another that the “new” one will be stiffer as it is made from 17-4ph. But the first one is as well, haha)Shooter & Shooter - Fotograf & Spearo
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Sorry, I actually referred to the wrong test, I was mixing up the 120 and 130.
Then my guess is that the spear isn’t straight… maybe only for few mm but enough at 6m.
I have personally tested both Sigal (round tip), Pathos and Rob Allen (tricut) with demultiplied guns with laser sight (set in my lab at 3,5m shot before going in the water): demultiplied guns have zero induced error and there is no difference between spears of same size but different tips… I’m sorry but i rely more on data i have measured and verified myself than Youtube info… especially when they fit physical laws.
As i told you the difference between spears of same steel is given by the barb and, even more, by the line dragged behind: serious manufacturers let you chose the position of the barb, and many high-level spearos are hammering the barbs to remove the flap-effect… try
Sailing… well, obviously i haven’t sailed the formula one of the coastal waters… my experience is only 15.000 miles/5 years solo on a catamaran in my old times… it is a bit like comparing a F1 with a car of the Paris-Dakar of Thierry Sabine’s times (not the pussies stroll of today)…. i haven’t met any regatist on the oceans so my trimming is more limited. If i change the exit from a jib i must adjust the main also… but i don’t adjust 1 cm of jib on a 60 miles tack…
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[quote=”Diving Gecko” post=24673]Sorry, I actually referred to the wrong test, I was mixing up the 120 and 130.
Then my guess is that the spear isn’t straight… maybe only for few mm but enough at 6m.
I have personally tested both Sigal (round tip), Pathos and Rob Allen (tricut) with demultiplied guns with laser sight (set in my lab at 3,5m shot before going in the water): demultiplied guns have zero induced error and there is no difference between spears of same size but different tips… I’m sorry but i rely more on data i have measured and verified myself than Youtube info… especially when they fit physical laws.
As i told you the difference between spears of same steel is given by the barb and, even more, by the line dragged behind: serious manufacturers let you chose the position of the barb, and many high-level spearos are hammering the barbs to remove the flap-effect… try
Sailing… well, obviously i haven’t sailed the formula one of the coastal waters… my experience is only 15.000 miles/5 years solo on a catamaran in my old times… it is a bit like comparing a F1 with a car of the Paris-Dakar of Thierry Sabine’s times (not the pussies stroll of today)…. i haven’t met any regatist on the oceans so my trimming is more limited. If i change the exit from a jib i must adjust the main also… but i don’t adjust 1 cm of jib on a 60 miles tack…[/quote]
Yeah, for the jib we even had a pulley giving 2:1 purchase. Not cuz we needed it for the power – the jib was not that big – but so that we could easily make those tiny adjustments. Crazy how much a 1-1.5cm change would make on a 700kg, 3 man boat. Hit a wave, need a lower gear? Let the jib out by that little and bear just a few degrees off until you picked up speed. We would even use the kicking strap upwind to bend the lower mast forward in high winds. We prolly had the oldest softest mast in the fleet – which made us able to keep up with the heavy guys when the wind was actually “above our weight”. I was very, very sad the day we broke that mast:-(
To take this thread completely off-topic I can tell you that my latest day dreaming resolves around buying a smallish multihull on the west coast of US and then sailing it down to Central America, tour the Pacific and finally base it in S.E. Asia – of course, spearing all the way, haha.
Just a few things holding me back – money being quite a reason, haha.Shooter & Shooter - Fotograf & Spearo
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Here it goes the left shot… right is very uncommon but can happen if one pulls the trigger brutally
HRC is one scale in measuring Rockwell hardness of steel: those spears you mention are better than standard, bend less and can be successfully straighten on a 50% of cases without snapping. Spring steel (Pathos) or high-carbon steel (Rob Allen) never bend… if that happens you are done for and the spear is to be replaced.
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Personally i prefer Springsteel: does not rust as high-carbon steel but has the same resistance and module… and don’t bend even with a Demo3 gun while hardened steel bend quite often with that power.
Pathos spears have been a big fuckup for business though… in one year we didn’t sell even one replacement while before it was quite common that a spearo changed at least one spear every season… 😛
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Money is never an issue if you spearfish… just land on a tourist area and enter any restaurant by the back door holding a good fish by the tail… this trick it saved me for many months when my moneybox was empty
Very cool. I was actually approached by a guy who ran a very good Mediterranean restaurant on a fave Asian island of mine – he was very interested in some King Mackerel. But I only got one and wanted to eat it myself with my friends. Had I gotten more, I would prolly just have swapped resto dinners for fish;-)
Oh, I wasn’t yet thinking about the money to keep sailing – I was basically thinking of the money to buy the boat! haha.
Shooter & Shooter - Fotograf & Spearo
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Here it goes the left shot… right is very uncommon but can happen if one pulls the trigger brutally
HRC is one scale in measuring Rockwell hardness of steel: those spears you mention are better than standard, bend less and can be successfully straighten on a 50% of cases without snapping. Spring steel (Pathos) or high-carbon steel (Rob Allen) never bend… if that happens you are done for and the spear is to be replaced.
Thanks for this! So, basically if the muzzle pulls right during the shot the spear will leave the gun at an angle (tip towards the left) and because of that inclination the spear will continue slightly to the left? And for the nose-lift issue: If the muzzle kicks the tail end of the spear up, the shaft will end low on the target, correct?
[EDIT. I got it wrong. For the left shooting – It is actually before the shaft is released that the problem happens. The finger itself forces the muzzle off sight, to the left, right?]
I do think I might have too much of a reach for the trigger – so will need to be very aware of this as I squeeze.
As a rule, I think I read that about 60mm from back of handle to trigger is an OK starting point? (Of course, this varies between people and glove thicknesses).
I already dremel’ed down my trigger a lot to shorten the distance.Shooter & Shooter - Fotograf & Spearo
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Exactly.
In the Pathos series there is a “winter handle” exactly to compensate for the thicker gloves.
In a standard gun and for people who enjoy DIY there is always the ootion of the moldable hard plastic… hobby shops like Panduro should have a selection of thermoplastics and polyurethane… dremel off the excess and shape a ew handle on top.
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